Confident Eaters

Georgie: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Confident Eaters Podcast, where you get proven methods to end overeating, emotional eating, and stressing about food. We are heading for harmony between your body, food and feelings, hosted by me, Georgie Fear, and my team at Confident Eaters.

Hello everybody. I am Georgie Fear Registered Dietician, and this is the Confident Eaters podcast. Today I have Ariel Faulkner with me. Say, hello, Ariel.

Ariel: Hello.

Georgie: And how's your day going today?

Ariel: It's going amazing, Georgie. I love what I do, so I just think I have the perma smiles. Since meeting you.

Georgie: We have pretty sweet jobs. We do. We have pretty sweet jobs, so, so today we have a really good topic. I'm really excited to talk about this one because for me personally, and I think for you two, Ariel, it, it has such a personal meaning for [00:01:00] us, because in our own lives we've been able to experience what it's like when we're living the diet life. Accounting, every calorie and scribbling notes on pieces of paper about how much we ate so we can make sure to account for it later, and how all of that changed when we get more in tune with the signals that are coming from our bodies.

Ariel: Exactly. I mean, I, I look back Georgie and I'm like, oh my gosh, tracking my food. Thinking about calories, doing this mental calculation all day about how much I've eaten. Because I mean, that's very much how we're trained. That's very much how we were trained to teach people to manage their weight. And that level of control and cognitive restraint actually has the opposite effect.

I was obsessed with food all the time. Yeah. I thought about food all the time, and then I actually overate things like health, health, halo foods, you know, I would overeat because, oh my gosh, these are the safe foods and they're low in calories, so now I can just eat them and then I wouldn't eat the ones that I really wanted. [00:02:00] And if I had actually had the ones I really wanted, I would've been right in the energy balance. I needed to.

Georgie: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's sad. Because we see people that are working so hard to make good choices when it comes to what they're eating. And they're trying to make sure that they're not eating too much sugar and that they're eating high protein foods.

And they're usually people that are also putting in effort to exercise. And if their weight's not going down, despite all this work, they can begin to get disheartened and feel like, you know, what the hell? Like, I'm, I'm doing my part here. Why am I not seeing results? So one of the things that we have found is really, really central to helping people get the best weight loss results, often better results than they have been able to achieve by calorie counting or sticking to a diet, is to tune into their appetite.

And specifically, we talk about. Tuning into one's appetite is having two main signals. We have our signals that cue us, Hey, it's time to get some food to eat. I'm hungry [00:03:00] over here. And then we also have signals that say, you know, I think I'm good for now. Why don't we do something else and we'll eat later.

So hunger is one side of the coin. Satisfaction the other side of the coin, today we're gonna focus on the hunger side. And I think this is somewhat of a polarizing topic because many people I raised my hand as one of them, thought that hunger was going to kill them. So we prevented it so urgently. We had snacks in our handbags and granola bars in the glove box of the car, and our desk drawer had things.

So like, heaven forbid, we actually got hungry, we could rescue ourselves. And while I was acting that way, I was maintaining a body weight that was higher than I actually wanted despite stressing about it all the time.

Ariel: And I think that's the key is, and this is what we see all the time, especially with women and men too, if they're in that place, but they're psychologically dieting, but their physiology is not in an an energy deficit.

Mm-hmm. And so it creates this [00:04:00] like inner frustration because you're extending all this restraint in the wrong area, and then you're not reaping any actual physical benefits because you're not using the very guide you need to use in order to achieve your goals, which is paying attention to hunger and satiety.

Georgie: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So a lot of people come to us and when we bring up the idea of let's try and use your body's signals. Mm-hmm. Let's feel for hunger to let us know if you're eating enough or if you need to eat more. We can use that to tell how adequate your lunch was on a given day. But many people feel like, I don't know. I don't want your weak sauce nutrition advice. Can you give me the real stuff? Like, come on. Like when do I get to be in the advanced nutrition class and count my calories and weigh things out? And I'm like, no, no, no. That is actually the beginner's route to try and control everything with your measuring spoons and your kitchen scale.

The [00:05:00] advanced nutrition class is when we actually say, you know, I wanna do this for the rest of my life and I wanna be able to do it with the factory installed mechanisms. So let's talk about some of the specific reasons why people think hunger's not gonna work for me. What do you hear from people, Ariel?

Ariel: I often hear from people that they have been so inundated from the messages from diet, culture and the media that hunger is something to fear. It's something to avoid, it's something to suppress. And it's, it's just this really negative connotation with hunger. And so everything about dieting, I mean, look at what we've seen over the years.

It's all about not feeling hungry. Mm-hmm. I mean, there's Hunger Crush. I remember those commercials. I think they were like Jenny Craig or something. And it was like, you're hunger crushing shakes so you'll never feel hungry and this and that. And it's like, oh my gosh. That's a very thing we need to learn in to manage in order to achieve our goals.

And this constant outside in approach is, is enough to make anyone [00:06:00] crazy and I don't know about you, Georgie, but how many of your clients want to track, weigh, measure, and calculate every time they eat?

Georgie: Not many, but they will do that if that's the only way to get to their goal. So,

Ariel: But how long, how long will they do that for?

Georgie: This is a good, that's a good point. You know, most people, I tend to say 95% of people are not going to be long-term weighers and counters. And the 5% that are probably won't be happy. Yeah. So they'll do it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's their optimal life or the best thing that we can help them toward. Yeah, I agree. I can remember commercials, I think Snickers has long capitalized on the fact that Snickers bars are the best thing for satisfying your appetite, your hunger. You're not, you when you're hungry. Was that one of the Snickers lines? It could have been. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. I remember seeing some comedic commercials where people would, you know, spontaneously lose all social graces and composure and then it would flash across the [00:07:00] screen.

You're not you when you're hungry.

Ariel: Yeah, I think and it, and it's really funny if you think about it because it's like we don't think about going to the bathroom and then go to the bathroom. Our body tells us you need to go to the bathroom. So you go to the bathroom. Can you imagine trying to put your bathroom schedule on a schedule and ignore your body signals? Doesn't that sound absolutely silly? Mm-hmm.

Georgie: Yeah, absolutely.

Ariel: Don't do that with hunger. That's another sign your body's telling you, I am low on fuel. This is your fuel gauge, you the nutrition.

Georgie: It does, it seems completely foreign to try and control some things from the outside, but we've become conditioned to think that's what a person does with food.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I I recalled seeing some commercial for Weight Watchers where they had hunger as this like orange, furry monster, and it was actually like adorable and would do things, but, That's what we're talking here. Like I, I bought that hook, line and [00:08:00] sinker thinking, you know, I have to prevent being hungry. After you've gone through something in particular, somebody who's been through crash dieting or a restrictive eating disorder where you have taken on more hunger than you ever wanted to deal with.

When you recover from that and you're sort of trying to find your healthy place in the world afterward, it's really common to feel like, oh no, I don't wanna feel hunger again. I've been there. That was bad news, and it can lead to us taking too extreme of approach. About refusal of your hunger at all.

Ariel: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Georgie: I don't know if you hear this one, Ariel, but many people will say to me, "yeah, Georgie, like, I know you try and get people to feel their hunger and all that, but I don't think it's gonna work for me. I'm hungry all the time, or my appetite is broken, so this hunger isn't gonna work for me."

I think some people really. That gets in their way. They feel like, yeah, hunger would work for other people. Other people have inherently different systems here, [00:09:00] but mm-hmm not me, that won't work for me. Do you ever hear that from people, people who seem to think that their mechanisms are broken or wired differently?

Ariel: Yes. Yes. And I, I would say that more so I get that people just look at me like it's a foreign concept. And so, because they've never even thought about using hunger as a gauge. And it's so, it's so unusual in this industry that they just don't think like, well, my body's not gonna work like that.

I'm not even gonna try. It's like not even something they're going to attempt. But the cool thing is, is the clients that do decide to embrace it are blown away.

Georgie: I agree. Just bowl over with how well it works.

Ariel: Totally. Absolutely. I think one of the clients I discussed in one of our previous podcasts came back this week and she said I could share it.

She was fine with it. And this is three weeks in and granted she started at a bit of a heavier weight, but she has been struggling her whole life and she had never, she was, she was the one who said, I don't know what hunger is. I never feel hungry. 'cause she would [00:10:00] just. Eat on you, eat all day, snack all day, which is very normal, healthy food too, actually.

And she, you know, just wonderful lady and she really dove in headfirst with this, you know, paying attention to hunger. And in three weeks she has lost 15 pounds. Oh, 15 pounds by tuning in. But that's not the part I'm excited about. The part I'm excited about is when she came back and she was like, I am learning so much about why I was driven to eat when I wasn't hungry.

And there's some pain coming up, there's some memories coming up, but she's starting to connect the dots as to why she was turning to food emotionally. And she's actually practicing self-care and kindness in those moments instead of eating. And so she's rebuilding that self-efficacy and that self-esteem.

And so when she gets to her goal, which she will, she is going to be, it's just, it's just her identity. It's just who she is. Yeah. [00:11:00] You know, if I had said, if she had gone, and you know what the best part about it is? What? She went into her doctor and she was actually considering she was at her witts end.

She had done so many diet programs, she was considering a weight loss medication like Ozempic. And her doctor referred her to me and said, you know what? Why don't you go see this dietician first and see if you can work with someone before we do a medication, which kudos to you physician that I really appreciate that.

And thank God she did because she actually has exceeded what she probably would've done with Ozempic. And at the same time she's building a whole new relationship with her food herself, her body, her husband, her life, and she just glows.

Georgie: Right? Oh, what a wonderful story. And when you go on a weight loss medication, most people have the goal of coming off of the weight loss medication. They don't wanna take it for the rest of their lives, even if it's not costing them a thousand dollars a month, which some of them do. But you're, when you learn to use your body's appetite signals, You've got the steering wheel in your hands for the [00:12:00] rest of your life, you can decide, yes, I want to steer my weight in a lower direction, or I just wanna hold it steady this week.

I'm going away on vacation and I'm happy with not having a weight loss week this week. Or you can maintain if that's what you wanna do, you really truly get to decide, which I think is a wonderful contrast to the powerlessness that so many people feel over their weight.

Ariel: Absolutely. Because then this approach, what we're doing is we are actually empowering people with the relationship with food versus creating a dependency or a disempowering relationship with food where they think they have to depend on a calculator or a guru.

I mean, how many gurus out there telling eat this? Don't eat this. Like as if they know your body. Right. We know we've worked with enough clients to know the bioindividuality between what works for people and there is no standard protocol or prescription for everyone. It just doesn't, don't work that way.

Yeah. And it's about getting to each individual and figuring out their [00:13:00] puzzle and their direction for their ultimate food freedom, and ultimately establishing a kind and loving relationship with themselves. Mm-hmm.

Georgie: Absolutely. And I think that's, That kind and loving element. And of course that sounds appealing to all of us.

Who wouldn't be like, yes, I want a kind and loving solution to my lifelong weight dilemmas. It can feel on the outside, like feeling hunger is cruel. How does that fit together? Like feeling hunger is suffering. So it can be difficult for people to accept like, yes, that I can do this thing and learn to feel hunger, but not have it associated with suffering and pain.

Ariel: So I'd love to ask you that question, Georgie. Why do you think so many people associate hunger with suffering and pain?

Georgie: I think with excessive amounts of hunger, there is tremendous suffering. And when we have [00:14:00] been hungry, for hours and hours of the day, or when you've spent nights staring at the ceiling with your stomach growling because you had to wait until the next day to reset your calorie total to get some more food to eat.

That is a truly painful experience, but that is not necessarily what we have to experience when we think about hunger. So when we're talking about hunger in the way that we wanna teach people to use it, it comes along as perhaps I'm out running errands. I'm picking up the kids from school and we're gonna be home in 15 minutes. And I notice that my stomach's like urg. Hmm, yeah. I'm gonna make sure I get some lunch.

Once I get the kids home and settled, my body's ready for food. Awesome. And then you get home, you're calm, you prepare a nice lunch to eat, and you eat it and you enjoy it, and you move on. That's what it looks like to be using hunger as your signal and perhaps a carbon copy of that day. You might be in the car picking the kids up from [00:15:00] school and you're thinking, huh, what am I gonna do once I get home?

'cause we gotta always stay a step ahead, right? And you realize like, Hmm, tuning in. I'm not hungry yet. Okay, maybe I'll knock out another load of laundry before I make lunch because my body's not telling me it needs food right now. This low drama, low suffering ability to plan accordingly is how we use hunger in a very kind sense.

And we never feel it for hours and hours and hours at a time.

Ariel: Exactly. And I also think, I mean, I couldn't agree with you more. I love those examples 'cause I do work with a lot of moms in that situation. And I also think a big thing is reframing it. So one of the things I help my clients with is like, you know, asking them first what their perception of hunger is and how it feels and what comes up for them.

Because often those emotions that come up around being hungry can give us some insight into why, why do they have this fear-based relationship with hunger, right? Mm-hmm. When you start to feel like you have to go to a bathroom, you don't freak [00:16:00] out and get afraid. You go to the bathroom and you pee or you do everything you do, right?

Georgie: Yeah. It's not an emergency,

Ariel: it's just No, it's not an emergency. I love that. I'll never forget that line from your book. Hunger is not an emergency and it really isn't. And you know, and you can talk to yourself just like you would say to your best friend or your child or whomever when they say, mom, I'm hungry.

Okay honey, well, we're about to have dinner in about an hour, so I think you can wait. I mean, we are complete. Well, hopefully we're completely fine doing that and helping our children to learn to also delay food for, for the ability to manage hunger. But I just think it's a big reframe and when people are really educated and taught about how important the signal is, they embrace it and they start to shift their mindset and go, oh, that's my body telling me that I'm in an energy deficit.

Okay, well if I'm trying to trend down, then maybe I'll just push it off for about an hour and sit down and I'm really gonna enjoy my dinner 'cause I'm gonna be really hungry and [00:17:00] maybe I'm at maintenance and maybe I start to feel that hunger and I'm gonna have a little snack or maybe I'm gonna wait until I have dinner in 15 minutes.

So it's really about changing our relationship to hunger because I just think that we've just been so brainwashed in so many arenas that hunger is something to fear.

Georgie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I think in college, if I felt hunger, I would've gotten up and left the lecture because I was like, I need to deal with this right now.

And I didn't understand how people could like be hungry and put it off, or heaven forbid, like the people that said they forget to eat, I was like, I do not understand you alien.

Ariel: Yeah. So exactly.

Georgie: I think it's helpful for all of us to sit back and just ask ourselves like, what is my relationship to hunger?

When was the last time I felt hungry? And we're gonna talk about different types of hunger in a few minutes, but what we're talking about here predominantly is the physical sensation. So the sense in your abdomen [00:18:00] that it's hollow or empty or a little bit of stomach growling, may or may not. Come into the picture as well.

And when you consider that physical sensation or that state of being hungry, what emotions come up for you? There's no right or wrong answer here. It's simply a matter of noticing what comes up. And so if you feel like, no big deal, it's hunger, I would get some food or make plans to eat great. For many people, it's gonna be more complicated in that.

So if you feel like, you know, when I consider that stomach growling or that gnawing feeling, I get intensely distressed. You may start to feel like anxious that you don't know how or when you're going to be able to get sustenance for yourself. Or you may feel like, but I don't want to eat because I'm uncomfortable with having needs and wanting stuff from the world and what if I inconvenience other people? Because they might not want to stop what we're doing to have a snack break. So just trying to tune in and notice what your emotions are, will enable you [00:19:00] to make decisions about. What will be the best way for you to take advantage of your appetite in terms of reaching your goals?

If you feel like you can handle hunger for 30 to 60 minutes before each meal, and it doesn't cause you to stress, that is an excellent place to begin if you want to move towards weight loss. 30 to 60 minutes of hunger before you eat each time is a level that won't throw you into a huge calorie deficit.

The kind that kills your energy level, slaughters your immune system down so you catch every cold and flu that goes around. It's not gonna kill your workouts, it's not gonna make your hair fall out or your periods stop. That is typically a very healthy level of hunger for somebody to feel. However I needed to go much more slowly than that.

When I first was talking with my husband Roland, about the sort of system that we were putting together to help people with weight loss, I started to do research and I was angry when I saw that hunger could be a very useful thing because I did [00:20:00] not want to feel hunger. I wanted to be able to prevent hunger and eat like eight times a day and have the body I wanted so I was not happy. And he, in his gentle understanding way, was like, why don't you just try feeling hunger once in a while? Like just take a small step And it's such a great idea, like why don't we just try a small step? Why do we have to throw ourselves into the deep end? Because we think no pain, no gain, or in this case, no pain, no loss.

So that's exactly what I did. I steeled my nerves, gritted my teeth, and decided I was gonna try and feel hunger for just five minutes once a day. I hated every minute of it. Absolutely hated it, but it was doable and it was survivable. After a few days of doing that, I was so proud of myself because this was the big, looming monster of hunger that I had thought I have to outrun, and I had spent so much energy trying to get away from and to actually sit there and say, come get me, make [00:21:00] me hungry.

I'm gonna feel it and I'm gonna be okay. Was actually dramatically empowering. Did you have experiences like that where you were sort of changing your perspective on hunger?

Ariel: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's funny, I think about how, until I read your book, I didn't even think about using hunger as a guide for myself, nor as a guide for my clients in regards to, you know, managing their intake, et cetera.

Now, I always did kind of utilize it in the sense of between meals, are you eating a snack when you're not hungry? Yes. But overall general sense of guiding all aspects of their intake and my own, it was just like a foreign concept. I mean, that is, we didn't learn anything about hunger and satiety in school.

Everything we learned was very clinical. Right. Yeah, very numbers based. And what's interesting is I also think there's a very simple piece here that I wanna touch on because I do think that part of the avoidance of feeling hunger is that humans, Don't like to be uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's just part of our nature.[00:22:00]

And hunger isn't comfortable. Nobody's saying it's comfortable, but it doesn't hurt you and it's tolerable. And typically it comes in waves. It lasts maybe 10 to 15 minutes, maybe 20 depending on the person, and then it passes, and it really doesn't come back for another couple of hours. And the more that you practice responding, instead of reacting to that and almost just being calm with yourself and saying, you know what?

This is just my body signaling, I'm gonna respond. Well, then every time we work through that discomfort, we build that muscle, we build that resiliency, and we build a different relationship with it. But if we're always constantly suppressing it and avoiding it, we're never going to change our relationship to it.

Georgie: That's true. Yeah. You can't become better acquainted with a monster that you're running from.

Ariel: Yeah, exactly.

Georgie: You just keep running.

Ariel: Yeah. And the, and then the irony is to me that I would say that is one of the most [00:23:00] foundational pieces to weight management and yet every single approach out there is an outside in.

It's a cognitive approach where you have to manage your body weight by using some macro calorie tracker, something to keep yourself in line instead of turning and going, Hey, I can actually trust my body to take me to the weight that is best for me. Because the other piece of that is if you are not listening to your body and you are following rules or tracking or counting or that cognitive restraint, you may get to a weight that you are happy at the weight, but you are white knuckling and you are so consumed with food that you can't even live your life.

Or at least you're not living your life to your fullest potential. I mean, the amount of women I talk to who are constantly thinking about food and if they are successful with that macro calorie approach, it's like taking up [00:24:00] so much energy of their day, or they are so strict about what they can eat and they have that discipline.

They formed that food is not a pleasure, it's just another job. Mm-hmm. I'm getting my, I'm taking my prepared X amount of chicken, broccoli and rice, whatever it is, and this is what I eat. And I mean, I don't know about you, but I like my life full of surprise, vibrant colors, variety. You bet. And there's amazing world of food out there to experience that.

I can't imagine ever living with that kind of restraint.

Georgie: When people say it, it always comes across to me as a little pretentious when people say, well, I eat to live. I don't live to eat.

Ariel: Oh God.

Georgie: Right? It's like, no, I'm not just eating to live like I wanna enjoy food. I definitely want to have flavor and color, as you said, and shared experiences [00:25:00] and talk about food, and share food with people and get creative with food and make new things like I don't wanna just put fuel in the tank, like I'm filling up my car. I want that to be pleasure associated with it.

Ariel: Yeah. Yeah. I've said exactly three times and I apologize for that. But I keep agreeing with you. Yes, it's, it's so true. And I would say, I don't know about you Georgie, but people who I've met who have that mentality, they are not people I would describe as being a vibrant, empowered, happy, and living life to the fullest.

I would describe them managing their anxiety, their body composition. And the funny thing is, is the same people who say that are often very consumed all day with what they're eating and how they're moving and how they're exercising. So their whole life is really caught up in this maintaining this specific image.

Mm-hmm. You're telling me that you live [00:26:00] because you only see food as fuel, but your life is all consuming of how you look and your workouts and your training and your micromanaging of your macros. Yeah.

Georgie: Yeah. It, it is, it's it does seem to go along with, a drive for control. So we've covered that. Some amount of hunger is perfectly healthy and feeling it too much of the time is behind a lot of people's really unpleasant experiences with it in the past. But that we can reacquaint ourselves with our body's signal of feeling hungry and that feeling it for 30 to 60 minutes before we eat is a fantastic benchmark with no counting calories to know that we're eating about the right amount for us to have a gradual weight loss.

So I think that's a really great. Foundation to start with. However, there's also some finer points behind really becoming masterful at steering your eating with your hunger. So there are some things that can get in the [00:27:00] way of hunger actually being calibrated properly. So one thing, for example, that we know can get in the way is if somebody doesn't have enough sleep.

Mm-hmm. Have you ever had a short night's sleep and then the next day you're like, man, I just want to eat and you eat your normal breakfast and not long after God, I just wanna graze. Is there anything else I can pop in in my mouth? And then later in the day, that feeling will often continue to resurface and resurface.

'cause your body is trying to function without the rest that it needs. And so it will try and get extra energy coming in, in chemical form, in the form of sugar, fats, carbohydrates, to keep you energized and moving forward. So there are other things that we need to consider in terms of an individual and how we're gonna help them use hunger.

I also think that many people who believe that hunger won't work for them, it actually becomes quite successful. However, there are certain people for whom hunger may not be the best solution for [00:28:00] them. As I said, like there's no one size fits all strategy. If you fall into certain populations, you using hunger to manage your weight may look slightly different from everybody else. So one in particular would be if you take medication that suppresses your appetite. Now, I'm not talking about weight loss medication in this instance, I'm talking about medications that are frequently prescribed for A D H D. Or other conditions that respond to stimulant medications. So if you take a stimulant medication, you probably take it first thing in the morning and you may find that it dulls or completely negates your appetite for the majority of the day. And usually we want these things to wear off so a person can still sleep at night.

So the appetite effect usually wears off and the person finds themselves quite hungry around dinner and in the evening time. So I've had numerous clients over the years that were taking a medication like this and without [00:29:00] intentionally doing something different, the pattern they adopt is not eating much during the day at all. And then when their appetite starts to come back, 'cause the meds are wearing off, they eat a lot at dinner and they may just continue to eat and graze straight until bedtime. So they end up eating a lot of food and not actually making progress toward a weight loss goal.

But they're doing it all in the late afternoon and evening. So what we try to do if somebody's in this circumstance is to recognize that their hunger is not gonna be reliable for breakfast, lunch, or any daytime snacks, but it is still going to serve a valuable purpose for us in the evening. So what I'll usually recommend is let's plan out a sufficient reasonable breakfast, a sufficient, reasonable lunch, and eat those just like it's medication, just taking your food, medication to have your energy throughout the day, and then when your medication begins to wear off and your appetite returns for dinner, that's where we can try and determine how well sized the meals were during the day.[00:30:00]

If you're feeling. Very strongly hungry at 3:00 PM and you don't wanna have dinner until five or six. We probably want to increase the meal size that you had during the day or add an afternoon snack. But if you can feel that hunger for 30 to 60 minutes before your desired dinner time, then we're pretty much right on the money.

So we can still use that hunger to steer and we try and feel hunger for 30 to 60 minutes before dinner and any evening snacks. How's that sound to you, Ariel? Does that jive with what you've done with your clients?

Ariel: Yes. Yes, absolutely. I agree with you completely. And I think the piece that's really important is making sure, because you can't use your hunger as a guide for breakfast and lunch, and that's where you really have to be intentional.

And we guide people about what a balanced meal looks like and how to properly balance their meals and the foods to focus on because the, the research has shown when you consistently undereat during the day even if it's suppression, like you said from a D H D drugs, et cetera the body is, is always calculating [00:31:00] that deficit.

And the same amount of food at dinner with a very low intake during the day is just not going to satisfy the same way it does when you eat that same amount of food earlier in the day. Mm-hmm. It is a physiological response, and I have worked with many people who have been on like A D H D medication or appetite suppressants that are stimulants and they think something's wrong with them because they barely eat anything all day. And then it's like it's all off track in the evening.

Georgie: Yeah. Your appetite's like the I R s. If you don't give it what it wants, it wants what it's owed plus interest.

Ariel: I love that. That's fantastic. Exactly, and the thing about it is you do, your body is signaling to you. In fact, you do have measurable differences in your satiety hormones and your hunger hormones when you have been in a steep energy deficit throughout the day.

And so there's nothing wrong with you when you feel like that monster's taking over you, [00:32:00] and you sit down on the couch and you're starting to eat the potato chips and you just can't find the satisfaction. You're rating the pantry and go to bed at night and you're overly full and you're like, why did I do that again?

Georgie: Because your biology told you to.

Ariel: Yep, exactly.

Georgie: Yeah. I always say in, in the battle of human versus biology, biology's gonna win.

Ariel: It always does.

Georgie: Yeah. So on the topic of medications, what do you see in your clients that are taking weight loss medications? Does that still work with using your hunger?

Ariel: No,

Georgie: that was a short answer.

Ariel: I mean, you can't, you can't work with hunger, with weight loss medications because, I mean, this is the funny part, Georgie, right? All weight loss medications work in the area of the brain where they suppress your ability to feel hunger. So if anything, what we should learn from that is your hunger is dictating your weight, your response to hunger, your management of hunger, and taking something to suppress [00:33:00] that is always going to be a temporary bandaid.

The other thing I've seen, which I don't know if people realize this, and now, I mean, they are saying that, for instance, if you use Ozempic, you may need to use it the rest of your life because when you do go off, you know, with physiology, there's always a homeostatic mechanism that's trying to make up for whatever this artificial suppression was like for, for the hunger with ozempic.

And so I have had a handful of clients who have come off Ozempic and they, if you don't like the feeling of normal hunger, when you go off ozempic, you feel the hunger is so extreme and so painful. You feel like you can never fill the void.

Georgie: Like a really exaggerated, persistent hunger.

Ariel: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, and one of my clients who went off Ozempic, I mean, she's probably one of the most controlled, I mean, her, her cognitive restraint, which is what we're working through, [00:34:00] is so tight that she did not gain weight after she went off Ozempic.

But she told me it was the most excruciating hunger she had ever felt in her life.

Georgie: That's frightening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't had too many clients that have been on Ozempic or Wegovy or some of these other Mounjaro other medications. The few that I have had have found that it was effective, but I've only had a number, a small number that have come off.

I would say 50 50 on people reporting that they were able to taper off and maintain their weight loss. But again, this is so new that I've only worked with these people for a couple of months. And I have had a, a few clients, I'd say the other 50%, who rapidly began regaining weight as soon as they came off of it.

And it was quite upsetting to them as anybody would feel after doing all that work to lose weight. So that is an important consideration. If somebody is interested in using [00:35:00] hunger to manage their food intake, it may not be a good match for weight loss medication. And if you are intending to use weight loss medication, bear in mind that learning to manage your relationship with your hunger is still probably going to be a crucial task.

Even after you finish taking the medication, I'm not saying that the medication has no benefit. I do think it can be helpful for people to break habits. For example, if you're in the habit of ordering and consuming an entire pizza for dinner several nights a week, and taking this medication helps you break that habit and get in the habit of going home and heating up a homemade meal, then that is certainly gonna work in your favor.

But just realize that it's not fixing all of the problems, and there still may be work to do on getting acquainted with your appetite when you decide it's time for you to come off a medication. So another thing that we know and change how well our hunger is calibrated toward [00:36:00] managing our energy needs has to do with the quality of the food that we choose.

Certainly when we're eating asparagus and steak, it's going to be different in how it impacts our physiological cues then if we took those same amount of calories in microwave popcorn.

Ariel: Exactly.

Georgie: So Ariel, you and I were talking earlier about a study that really dove into this in detail, where the researchers did a really well designed study to look at what actually changes if we take human beings, not rats, not rodents, and feed them two different diets, one that's highly processed and one that is more whole unprocessed foods. Tell me about that.

Ariel: Yeah, I actually wish the study had gotten more media attention, but it didn't have those sexy headlines because I mean, who wants to read about hunger? Right, right. Like Kevin Hall did this really amazing study and he had the great, the great piece of this was [00:37:00] that he used the same people and it was crossover.

So you wouldn't have kind of metabolic differences or any of those differences 'cause you're using the exact same person and you're putting them in two different situations. So one of the phases of the study was the ultra processed, and I wanna make something clear when I'm saying ultra processed, I'm not talking about, you know, your sourdough or whole grain bread you're buying from the bakery. And I mean, some people associate those things with ultra processed, but when I'm saying ultra processed, I'm specifically referring to refined processed foods that are very calorie dense and very easy to consume. And some of them were like chips and snacks and things that have just been, you know, most of it comes in a box and

Georgie: poptarts.

Ariel: Poptarts, things like that. I mean, they did eat some real food. Of course, they didn't just eat ultra processed foods during that phase, but over 80% of their meals came from ultra processed foods. Now, the other cohort, when they did the other piece of it, it was their food was [00:38:00] mostly on processed. But again, the 80 20 rule where 80% was whole food, maybe 20% was a little more processed, and we're talking about sandwiches and yogurt and eggs and these all, all these whole foods we, we understand and know.

And what was really interesting was the only, the only rule was they had to listen to hunger and satiety. So they were given free for all with the meals. And it was in a metabolic ward, so everything was controlled and they were to measure exactly how much people ate. And then they measured their hunger and satiety.

And in the unprocessed four weeks, just, just listening to hunger and satiety, they lost four pounds on average. So they were losing a pound a week on the ultra processed diet. Just listening to hunger and satiety, they gained on average one pound a week.

Georgie: Wow.

Ariel: And so this is definitely, I think, a caveat that, or a nuance or whatever you wanna say that we wanna throw in there because we are not saying that if you're gonna go eat McDonald's [00:39:00] three times a day, you can trust your hunger and satiety. You just can't. Those are not foods that we were designed to eat and they don't work with our physiology. And they did measure ghrelin, which is your hunger hormone and leptin, which is your satiety hormone, and the ghrelin was, was much higher on the ultra processed diet, despite the fact that they were eating on average 600 more calories a day. They were more hungry.

Georgie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ariel: And the was not as suppressed despite the calorie intake. So I think that's another thing that's really important. And this goes back to the calorie game. Calories don't cause satiety. Food, micronutrients, fiber, these things are what bring us satiety, meeting our body's basic needs for macronutrients.

Like there was the protein leverage hypothesis that just came out in recent years showing that we will be food seeking until we get a certain amount of [00:40:00] essential amino acids in our bodies because that signals to the brain that we're fed. And I truly think it does the same way with essential fats. And it's the same way with different essential carbs and prebiotic fibers, et cetera. And so when you have all of those things in line, it's actually very simple then to tune in to your body and then when you do get hungry, you don't get these crazy swings 'cause your blood sugar isn't crashing. You're actually maintaining a nice steady blood sugar throughout the day and you really don't need a C G M (continuous glucose monitor) to do that.

Georgie: Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's, it is, as you said, it's not the sort of thing that makes headlines when we find out that eating less processed food helps you naturally manage your weight better. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think that there's a lot of people who are very health concerned that are very weight conscious, that are, have exerted a lot of restraint over the years to avoid unnecessary [00:41:00] calories that still end up consuming a more processed diet than is ideal.

So for example, I've work worked with a lot of people that are heavily into the fitness industry and many times they're consuming quite a few shakes and bars during the day. And so, They may be looking at this as my calories are in the right range. I'm getting plenty of protein, but they're not eating a whole lot of real foods.

They're not eating a lot of fruits and vegetables. There may be eggs and rice and sweet potatoes in there occasionally, but a lot of people that are simply coming at things from a macro perspective aren't taking advantage of as much unprocessed foods as they could be. And sometimes I think that's because it's less effort to prepare if you just unwrap your snacks every day and additionally stuff that comes with a nutrition label on it is much easier for a bro with a one day nutrition certification to put into a meal plan. [00:42:00]

Ariel: Yes. And you know what's so funny? I have to tell you this quick story 'cause this is hilarious. I will never forget when I was in college, I think I was 20 years old and I waitressed nights and I was in that whole need a protein bar.

I was working at the gym, I was interning under this dietician at the gym and she was all about the shakes and the bars and the calculations. And I was waitressing. And then the bartender was like, aren't you gonna have dinner? I said, no. I have a bar. And he was like, why are you eating a bar?

It's like a candy bar with protein. And I got so mad at him, I was like, I can't believe it. You're calling my protein bar, candy bar with protein. I've been

Georgie: insulting my $4 candy bar.

Ariel: And then I got older and I'm like, oh my God, this was a candy bar with protein. And I would so much rather have had some real food. But it's funny because again, I think that's where we get so obsessed with these like, don't, like I love to tell clients, don't major in the minor. It will distract you from the bigger picture if you're so obsessed. Like I know clients who have been eating food because they [00:43:00] have to quote, meet their protein goal and it's like, no, no you don't.

Georgie: No, no, no, no.

Ariel: If you're building your meals properly, you're probably getting plenty of protein unless you're have, unless you're an athlete and you maybe do need it extra supplement to get enough protein, but most of the time we can easily meet our protein needs through real food.

Georgie: Absolutely. Yeah. And I, I like protein bars on occasion. I quite enjoy them. Like you hand me a chocolate chip quest bar, I'm gonna be very happy with that. But yeah, it's, it's a matter of that being an accessory to a diet that's mostly unprocessed stuff. And I usually, if people ask me for my recommendation, like how much of that stuff is okay, well, there's no line where it's not okay.

But as a general guideline, I'll say, try and make your protein sources that are supplemental, a k a powdered or in a bar, keep that to once per day or one of your meals or [00:44:00] snacks per day. When I see people start to use it for like breakfast and lunch, then I start to look at what's left. And then now they're only down to consuming one meal of whole food proteins per day.

So I'll usually steer people more toward, you know, some eggs, some dairy, some beans, seafood, poultry, soy. There's so many options out there and so much less expensive too.

Ariel: So much less expensive, and so much more satisfying. And I just wanna clarify something. Protein bars have come a long way. I am gonna be 43 years old, so they didn't have quest bars back then.

Georgie: That's so true.

Ariel: And I will say I do use them because like tomorrow is a great example. We're gonna be traveling, so we're gonna be in airports all day. So I'm gonna have a protein bar on me just in case I don't see any real food options that sound good? So then I'll have my protein bar in my bag to combine it with some other snacks I pick up to make somewhat of a meal.

Georgie: Yeah.

Ariel: And we know how airports are, but it's, it's definitely something where I think that protein bars and these protein [00:45:00] enhanced foods and these protein shakes have been given this halo effect. And I think people actually think that they cause weight loss in and of themselves by just eating right.

Georgie: Protein chips. Protein cookies.

Ariel: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Georgie: So the bottom line is for our hunger to work at its best, we wanna keep the system working with mostly unprocessed foods. I think it's also worth adding in the impact of liquid sources of nutrition that many studies have found that if we are drinking our calories, as opposed to eating them in a more solid form.

So the difference between, say, a soda versus two oranges, let's say you have similar amounts of calories and carbohydrates and sugars, we still tend to get more appetite, satisfaction from food that is whole. It stays intact a little bit longer in the stomach. Perhaps the presence of fiber makes a difference, but we do know that for optimal [00:46:00] hunger satisfaction, try and steer toward unprocessed.

Ariel: The other thing research has shown is that when you do snack or eat between meals, even if it's a protein bar, your brain doesn't actually register that towards your satiety mechanism.

Because if you're not hungry, it's like it just adds extra calories without actually contributing to your natural hunger and satiety. So if you have a 250 calorie protein bar between breakfast and lunch or lunch and dinner, 'cause you're trying to quote, prevent being hungry or trying to meet your protein goals or whatever, you are going to be just as hungry at that next meal if you were not hungry when you consume that bar.

Georgie: Right.

Ariel: And I think that's something that people don't realize is that the idea of eating to prevent feeling hunger. Is doing the complete opposite. You're just adding a whole bunch of extra calories that are going to not, not allow you to feel any more satisfied at the next meal.

Georgie: Yeah, yeah, [00:47:00] that is a really good point. So sort of drip feeding or giving ourselves lots of small feedings throughout the day, not as effective as eating substantial quantities of food at a time that get us satisfied. Like really take the hunger down to zero so that it's, when it comes back, it's a noticeable, clear signal. Okay, so we discussed that some populations may have to make some adjustments to use hunger, such as if you're on or considering weight loss medication, if you take medications for other conditions, which suppress your appetite.

If you're currently eating a lot of processed foods, you may want to try and make some swaps. The last category, I would say, if you are in recovery from binge eating or bulimia, and you currently have not gotten several months past your episodes of binging and purging, those really do throw a wrench into hunger.

So it's beyond the scope of what we're gonna cover in this episode, but I do wanna say that appetite does return to normal. It's simply a matter of letting your [00:48:00] system heal and recalibrate after having episodes of binging and purging. So, seeking out a specialist or working with a coach one-on-one to help you get back to normal hunger signals is absolutely great investment to make in your own recovery.

So moving on. Sometimes we will hear our clients when we ask them about their hunger and what their experience is like say something like, I'm hungry all day long. Now, how can we help somebody with that? If they're hungry all day long in their perception, well then we can't really say, be hungry for 30 to 60 minutes before meals 'cause they're already hungry all day long. Ariel, what can we do? Help me out.

Ariel: Well, I mean, in my experience, I think that a lot of people mistake head hunger and mouth hunger for stomach hunger. And so they think they're hungry all day long, but it's not true stomach hunger. That's been my experience.

Georgie: How would you define those? How would you define those? Head, mouth and stomach hunger?

Ariel: Yeah. So I would say mouth hunger is like, you're just like, hmm. [00:49:00] I could use something sweet. Right now I'm craving something. What would satisfy me? No, maybe I want some potato chips. Like that's, I would say that's almost a combination of mouth and head hunger. And then head hunger is like, what I find is a lot of people who think they're hungry all day, it's because they're not paying attention. They're not eating mindfully, they're not eating slowly, they're not eating what they really want to eat. And that's creating this feeling of dissatisfaction all day, especially if they've got cognitive like restraint or diet mentality.

So then it's like they're constantly thinking they're hungry or looking for food because they're just not giving their body what it needs. What about you? What do you think Georgie?

Georgie: I think I don't necessarily differentiate between head and stomach and mouth. Hunger. It's not, and I don't see anything wrong with dividing it that way.

I know that when we were talking about hunger in the genuine sense, the one that we're using to steer food intake, we [00:50:00] want to be that stomach hunger. So I do agree with that. And I do use the same word with my clients. I'll talk about stomach hunger or physical hunger. And then when it comes to those other sensations, I usually just call them desire.

Because tragically in the English language, we often use the word hunger to mean desire. Like I was hungry for adventure, meaning you were desiring adventure. So it's not improper use of the word at all, but for our purposes it helps to clarify that we're talking desire when we just want something. And so that desire can come from a lot of different places, not just mouth and head as I see it though I think I know what you mean. That mouth is more, I want the flavor, the taste that

Ariel: Yes. Yeah.

Georgie: It's about taste really. The sensation.

Ariel: Yes.

Georgie: And then head hunger. My God, I think like everything comes from our head, like desiring rest or a break from work comes from the head, or wanting to do something for ourselves to call the resentment we [00:51:00] feel over somebody else getting the promotion we deserve or whatever.

Like there are infinite rationale that can come from the brain in terms of why we're desiring food. So I think I love talking about these things. I love helping people uncover like, what are you actually desiring? If it's not physical hunger, it could be pleasantness, it could be the pleasure that we get from eating something tasty, or it could be so many emotional things.

It can also be retreating from an emotional experience that we wanna get away from. So commonly people will feel like they're air quotes hungry when they simply are feeling disappointed, sad, lonely, bored, and they want to. Diminish that experience when you've practiced a lot of times using food to help you feel better.

In that instance, the desire feels just as natural as the desire to get a sandwich for a physical hunger. [00:52:00] It seems like this is what I do when I feel that instinct. So talking about this is always fascinating with people, and I think many people are surprised when we stop and we identify, okay, we're gonna call this physical sensation, hunger. We're gonna call all the other reasons that you want food, desire. People come back with like, why the eyes? Like, I had no idea how different these two things were. There were times when my desire was super high and I had no discernible physical hunger, which seemed really strange. We get to learn a lot about ourselves during that. So I agree with you that when somebody says they feel hungry all the time, we wanna get more specific about what they're feeling.

Ariel: Yeah, I think it's just a misunderstanding of what true hunger feels like.

Georgie: Yeah.

Ariel: We all work with them.

Georgie: Mm-hmm. I do think there's, there's certainly things that we alluded to earlier that could make somebody experience physiological [00:53:00] hunger for a lot of hours of the day. Like I mentioned, if somebody's chronically undersleep and also being very restrained so they're not eating extra, then they could just be suffering from that physical hunger for a good chunk of time. Or, you know, I all hail the 1980s when we avoided fat like the plague, and if you were like me, you got hungry two hours after everything you ate because everything was low and fat.

Ariel: Oh my gosh. I love that you just said that because it's so true. Yeah, I remember, gosh. Well, I mean, we grew up in the eighties and nineties when it was like the low fat craze and I was like,

Georgie: Pass the snack wells.

Ariel: Yeah, exactly. No, we don't eat nuts and avocado and butter. Oh my God. And it's actually that little fat in the meal, having that fat source that allows for that nice steady blood sugar response.

Yeah. And the society, it's really critical for satiety and also mouth feeling pleasure. I mean, having healthy fats in your meals is just, it's just any of these macros. I mean, a, a balanced [00:54:00] meal is always more appealing than these extremes. Like, why are we so obsessed with. This idea that food has to be a struggle?

Like in some way we have to restrict ourselves and we have to go on these diets, and when, when, when we give women permission to go, no, you can actually have a sandwich, have some whole grain bread, or you can have some potatoes, or you can have some rice with your meal. All of a sudden they start thinking, oh my God, I'm not having those cravings.

I'm not having that hunger, that desire, because now the body's actually getting what it needs. Oftentimes we have that desire, like I've had clients who have tried to do keto, and I'm not saying keto doesn't work for some people, it works for them. They enjoy it. They like that way of eating, but for 90% of people I've met who've tried it or done it for a while, they eventually just wanna be able to eat a piece of pizza or some potatoes and not have this shame and guilt and feel like they're messing up.

Georgie: Right, right. Yeah. I've had a lot of conversations that I sort of went like [00:55:00] this. "Georgie, I eat a huge salad with olive oil dressing and salmon, and then I have some keto peanut butter cup afterwards. So like I've had plenty of fat, I've had plenty of protein. Something is not satisfied." And I'm like, what about a piece of bread?

And have, if they actually take me up on this and eat a piece of bread, start putting some croutons on the salad, eat some potato, they're like, "oh my God, that scratched the itch. That was the thing I needed." And then I've had the same exact conversation with people who are eating low fat and they're like, "I had the, the huge salad with apple and low fat cheese and low fat dressing. And then I ate an entire can of tuna. I had so like plenty of calories. What's wrong?" And I'm like, well, you didn't have any fat. Why don't we have some peanut butter? Like, throw some cashews on that salad and they come back. "Oh my God, that scratched the itch. That was just what I needed." And you know, the third [00:56:00] iteration is someone telling me about their low protein diet and how they're, this vegan thing is going so great, but they're not satisfied. And we try and include another source of protein, which can be vegan. I'm not picking on the plant-based eaters, but if somebody's eating lots of low protein food and we increase the protein, they're like, you hit the spot.

Ariel: Yeah. And what's really interesting just from a research end is when they have studied indigenous diets, which again, let's go back to seeing what, what worked for people.

When we were managing our weight without an issue, people ate a balanced diet. On average, about 60% was either plant or animal foods, depending on how close they were to the equator. And then 40% was plant or animal foods. And it all came into quite a balance, you know, very much in that zone of about splitting your plate even.

And they have even shown, balancing your meals like that affects genetic expression in a very positive way, and it really [00:57:00] does create that satisfaction. I mean, how delicious is taking some sourdough bread and putting a little bit of avocado and adding some Turkey and having some cheese and having a salad and it's like, take the avocado away. Ugh. Take the Turkey away. Ugh, I'm still hungry.

Georgie: Take the bread away. I'm not having it.

Ariel: Okay. I'm not having it. Or I'm gonna be looking for something in the pantry. Yeah, I mean that's the piece of our hunger and satiety is not just calories. It's like, how much pleasure are you getting from the meal? Are your senses involved? Because when you eat meals that are really satisfying and you're engaging all your senses and you're actually eating mindfully, it's amazing how you can eat. I never thought Georgie, I would be where I will eat lunch and forget. I literally forget about food until I go downstairs at five o'clock. Sometimes I might feel a little hunger in between if I've had a workout that day, so I might grab something, but I don't think about food [00:58:00] at all.

Georgie: Mm-hmm.

Ariel: And we can get to our goal either constantly obsessed with food and obsessing over food, and even people who are on weight loss medications and their hunger is suppressed, they're still obsessing about all the food they can't have.

Georgie: Sure, sure. I mean, for many people, that's just like a tremendous hobby removed from their life and source of joy. You know, if, if you have been spending a lot of time planning and enjoying, prepping, sourcing food, and then all of a sudden things change. I've seen some dramatic things along that line with people who have had bariatric surgery and suddenly their day goes from having several hours engaged in what they're going to eat, who they're going to eat it with, where they're gonna go enjoy their meal, and then it's suddenly so simplified because they're eating tiny portions, very, you know, food has become so much less than it was that it leaves a lot of space. [00:59:00]

Ariel: I think that's really important to note because I did work at a bariatric clinic and I do have some clients who had, had still, who have had bariatric surgery.

And you know, the unfortunate thing is that a lot of those clients end up turning to alcohol or turning to another substance of abuse. And you know, I, I understand what you're saying is using it as a tool, but I still, in my personal professional opinion, I still feel like it, it's just delaying a person from truly healing and, you know, getting to a healthy weight that they can maintain forever because we are eating when we're not hungry or we're overeating or we're having these habits and behaviors with food because of an emotional reason. And if we're not gonna address that, if we're not gonna address why we're using food to cope, then any prescription or bandaid we put over that it is eventually going to arise and we are eventually going to have to deal with it.

Georgie: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So if [01:00:00] somebody feels hungry all the time, it sounds like both of us are on board with figuring out what they're feeling 'cause maybe it's not physical hunger. I mean, if it is, then that's the simplest one. We make some nutrition adjustments, but very often it's that they're desiring something that food may not be giving them. And so we can figure out what that is and help people.

Ariel: Mm-hmm.

Georgie: So I sometimes hear about the opposite too, when I talk about hunger with a new client and they say, I just never feel hungry. Do you ever hear clients say that to you?

Ariel: I have, yes. And in fact, it was the very lady I gave an example of earlier on our initial assessment. She never felt hungry. And the reason was, is because she was always eating on autopilot. She would, she would get up in the morning, she would have her breakfast, she didn't feel, hunger. And then she was snacking all day because that was her emotional outlet. And then meals were just, well, I have lunch at noon, I have dinner at whatever time it is. Mm-hmm. And so this, even the feeling of hunger wasn't [01:01:00] even something that she was attuned to. And I've seen that actually quite a bit with clients is they don't, when they don't feel hungry.

And that's what I have to reframe in my head. I kind of went the wrong direction in my head with the questions. Yes. When they don't feel hungry, it's not because their body isn't hungry, it's because they're typically eating out of habit or out of a schedule and they haven't actually learned to tune into what hunger feels like.

Georgie: Exactly. Yeah. That's what I see. 99% of the time, it's because somebody's just eating a quantity that their body never has to produce the hunger hormones 'cause they're in a steady energy surplus.

Ariel: I would also like to mention that I do have a client who I had worked with for a while and then she was going through a really hard time and she did try Ozempic.

Mm-hmm. And over the course of three weeks, she did end up gaining about 10 pounds on

Georgie: Wait. She gained weight on [01:02:00] Ozempic?

Ariel: 10 pounds that we had lost together.

Georgie: How did that happen?

Ariel: Well, how did that happen?

Georgie: Yeah, what did she do?

Ariel: She never listened to her body to begin with, with hunger and satiety. And so she goes to the doctor's office and they're saying, oh, we're gonna try Ozempic. And they told her to "eat intuitively". Well you don't feel hungry on Ozempic. And so her intuitive eating, because she still was utilizing hunger as a mechanism to control her emotions or as an emotional outlet. She ended up actually putting on quite a bit of weight in a short period and feeling even more disempowered because now she's like, oh my God, Ozempic doesn't even work for me. And that is absolutely heartbreaking. And that, that really affected her self-efficacy and her self-esteem. And, you know, I won't go into the details of the client, but something happened, she was going through some really[01:03:00] really hard issues at home with her family.

And so she thought, you know, I can't focus on doing the it this way. I think I need a tool right now. And I said, you know what? I need you to do what you feel is right for you because it's not about me to tell my clients what's right for them. And she experimented and yes, that was the result.

Georgie: What did she decide to do after that? I'm just curious.

Ariel: Yeah, she went off Ozempic and right now she is just trying to kind of go back to what we had been working on, and then I had recommended that she join your Facebook group to help get some coaching and some guidance. So that's just a small story of why I am still really hesitant to even promote, recommend, or utilize any of these medications with clients.

Georgie: Mm-hmm.

Ariel: Because I just can't see long term, how they're really gonna help people fix their relationship with food and get to their goal.

Georgie: I'm glad that she didn't quit and that she [01:04:00] has you to guide her through this. Because when somebody has considerable difficulty with their emotions and they're using food to help them cope with emotional difficulty or pain, that is absolutely going to get in the way of only eating when we're hungry. Of course it is. It's one of the things that frustrates me when people who don't struggle with their weight comment to people who do struggle with their weight. Why don't you just eat when you're hungry and stop one full? Like, what's the big deal? I wanna stand up and like tuck behind me, all of these people that have gone through so much with their weight and be like, don't you dare say that, because you have no idea what it takes for somebody to just eat when they're hungry and stop when they're full.

It's not something that many people can just snap their fingers and do.

Ariel: Exactly. And the other thing I would ask you, Georgie, just, you know, we have an intake form mm-hmm. And we ask people questions about, you know, their snacking, their BLTs, that's bite slicks and tastes [01:05:00] throughout the day, basically how often they eat when they're not hungry.

And I would love to ask you, over the years with this intake form, when somebody's reached out to you for weight loss, how often do you see that they eat purely out of hunger and satiety?

Georgie: Virtually nobody only eats out of hunger and satiety. So the question that's worded about hunger, sort of has multiple choice options. So people can say, I'm hungry more than an hour before each meal. In fact, I might never feel satisfied. So somebody who's feeling, as we discussed air quotes, hungry or they perceive themselves as being hungry all the time, there's another answer that they can choose as their response, which is, I never or rarely feel hungry.

And then the third option is I feel hungry for 30 to 60 minutes or so before I eat. And then there's a free text so people can write in, I'm Hungry Mondays, but not Wednesdays on the full moons. So whatever their experience is, they [01:06:00] can write it in there.

So most people will say that they are hungry a large percentage of the day and rarely satisfied or full, or they will select that they're hungry for 30 to 60 minutes before meals.

So those are the most popular two answers. But later in the assessment where there's the option to report how frequently they eat out of procrastination or wanting to soothe or numb an emotion, those answers are typically at least once a week. And for some people more than once a week, and for some people more than once a day, they're eating to help manage an emotion or sometimes because they're bored or sometimes because they're restless and need to settle down.

So I sort of triangulate when I'm doing an assessment, all of the answers that we've gotten on all of those questions so we can get the the full picture for people. And of course, nobody's like the same. So I might have [01:07:00] 75% of my meals, I'm hungry for 30 to 60 minutes beforehand, but 25% of the time I'm hungry for longer than that and I just ignore it 'cause I'm busy and that already adds up to a hundred.

But another small segment of the time I might be eating. When I wasn't hungry, just because it seems like time or because they have free samples and I'm not one to pass up a free sample. Like there's, there are so many different things that can combine in one individual's experience. So as coaches, we know people don't always fall into one box or the other.

Ariel: Oh yeah, definitely. And I think the reason I wanted to ask you that was just to make a point that we don't have people reaching out to us for weight loss who understand. And really work with their hunger and satiety mechanism. Yeah, yeah. And you say, yeah, meals are mostly hungry. When you go down a little, it's like, how many times do you eat out of boredom?

How do many times do you eat out of stress? How many times do you go to a dinner party and overeat? How many times you go to a [01:08:00] restaurant and overeat? And you start to look at all these patterns and every single time somebody has extra weight that they are not happy with, they have habits of eating outside of physiological hunger, and that's where our focus needs to be.

Okay, you're snacking. So let's look at this. You've got your, let's say you've got your meals down, but you're snacking in between meals. Instead of going on Weight Watchers, let's focus on changing your habits between meals. So you're doing something that you enjoy and relaxes you and brings you pleasure.

Because the problem is when you're using the wrong tool, which is food for an emotional issue, you're never going to solve that emotional issue. And then you. Reinforcing using the wrong tool, and then you're spinning your wheels and then you're frustrated and then they're like, oh my God, why can't I lose weight? Okay, I'm gonna do 75 Hard.

Georgie: Yeah. Right. You can never get a satisfying amount of something that's almost good enough of a solution.

Ariel: Yeah, yeah. No, we gotta go to the extreme. [01:09:00] We gotta go

Georgie: extreme. Yeah. I, I do think that's why the approach that we use with helping people learn to use their hunger signals and learn how to meet their emotional needs so that they can use their hunger signals, why that lasts people for a lifetime is because it's more effective and more fulfilling than other options.

So not only is it less costly, but it's also less painful than doing other things. And when someone's doing a highly unpleasant sort of crash diet, of course they don't want to do it for very long. Right. Because it stinks. But if you're doing something that feels relatively natural and you feel like you're building in your emotional skills and, and your self-control and your self knowledge all the time, people tend to not be like, eh, I've had enough of this. I wanna go back.

Ariel: Yeah. It's, it's really interesting to me how with the whole weight [01:10:00] loss fitness field, we seem to have a very strong bias to where, what we think our expectations of our results do not meet the reality of our physiology nor our psychology. And I think that's what discourages people, but that's also what we have been sold by the industry.

And if we really look at it rationally, you don't go in when you're, you know, basically living paycheck to paycheck to a financial advisor and expect him to invest and you'll be a millionaire in a month.

Georgie: Yeah.

Ariel: He has to teach you how to manage your money. You have to slowly invest, you have to look where you're spending when you don't need to spend, you have to look at what you're buying impulsively that you need to have more, you know, self-control around from a self-care sense though, in a kind of sense because if we just operated where we did what we wanted, when we wanted, well, that's not going to be creating the life that we're really looking for. And then we're self-medicating with all these quick fixes and wondering why we're spinning our [01:11:00] wheels and not happy.

Georgie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's true. You have to invest some time and some learning into a process to really get the best long-term results,

Ariel: Which is what builds your confidence with food.

Georgie: Mm-hmm. So we've covered a lot of information today. If you came into this episode thinking, yeah, I don't know what they're talking about, hunger not gonna work for me. I hope we've given you some things to make you reconsider. In particular, you may need to use hunger slightly differently than other people. If you're in one of those populations I mentioned, you may find that you're only ready to step into hunger very slowly.

Nothing says you have to rush this relationship. You can take things very slowly. Just get acquainted for one minute or five minutes here and there to see how it goes. You also might notice if you perceive that you desire food all day long, you can learn a lot from trying to parse out which of those are physically [01:12:00] driven and which of those are stemming from other equally legitimate, just different needs, perhaps a need for rest, a need for more pleasure, or a break from the pressures of your day.

Lastly, if you feel like you're never physiologically hungry, you may wanna start paying attention to why that is. Is it something that you're open to exploring? And if so, consider just paying more attention to the gaps between your meals. And if you wait a little longer for one meal, do you have that sensation of hunger show up?

You can invite hunger to come about pretty reliably simply by delaying a meal and waiting for most people. It doesn't take too long for their genuine hunger to show up. If you feel like you need some personal support here, we are more than happy to help you out. You can always find more information on our coaching programs at confidenteaters.com, and if you wanna drop me a line and ask me any question about whether working with us is right for you, my email is Georgiefear@gmail.com.

Thanks a lot, [01:13:00] Ariel, for joining me. Any parting words that you wanna send people off with?

Ariel: No, I would say that famous quote. If you, what is the definition of insanity? Georgie? Doing the same.

Georgie: Doing the same thing over and over, over and over. Expecting different results.

Ariel: Different results. That's how I would wrap it up, if that's how you feel. There is a better way, I promise.

Georgie: Yeah. Trying Hunger is so new for so many people and it is so refreshingly different for people who find a way to make it work for them.

Ariel: Yeah. And it ultimately brings you that empowerment and freedom so that you're not looking outside yourself anymore on how you're supposed to eat.

Georgie: Yeah. All right. Well, we are gonna send you off to have a great week of practicing. Maybe you're brave enough to feel a little hunger, not too much hunger 'cause we still gotta be kind to ourselves. Drop us a line if you need a hand. We will see you in the next episode of Confident Eaters. [01:14:00]